Liars - London, UK, Autumn 2007
By: Thomas Hannan
"Hello, Tom at Rockfeedback!"
I can tell this will be a fun one from the start. What Liars drummer Julian Gross actually greeted me with sounded more joyous, like, "Hello, Tom at Rockfeedback!!!", but three consecutive exclamation marks isn't the done thing. Not that Liars have ever had much concern with the done thing.
"Our second and third records were very concept heavy, whether it be witches, or the drum. This time we wanted to aim a little more at the most basic parts of the brain. Sometimes the conceptual aspect can overshadow the music, this time we wanted the music to stand up more, we weren't bothered with record titles (the album, if it's called anything, is called 'Liars'), concepts, you didn't have to know much more or engage more, it was just about the songs this time. Concepts can be overshadowing, they can get easy. Well, not easy, but we'd already done that, so it wasn't really a challenge any more. This made it more interesting."
It was more of a challenge to do something straightforward?
"It is interesting, now you say it! But in a way it's a lot harder to do something like that. I remember trying to cover a Pixies song once, and you think the Pixies are kinda straightforward, but it's really hard to cover a Pixies song! There's actually so much to think about with so called straightforward songs. It's not soundscapes this time. You have to really make these parts.
Are you having more fun now, rocking out?
"Yeah, it is a lot of fun making music with this much guitar you know, and just wailing! That's pretty exciting to do. And there's also less to go wrong mechanically, no boxes to break."
Last time, with 'Drum's Not Dead' (Liars' impeccable third LP), you gave us that amazing DVD with the record. Was that always meant to be a one off, or are we deliberately being told to enjoy 'Liars' on a less complicated level?
"Well, we turned this one out a lot quicker, which had a lot to do with it. We just didn't have the time to really do that this time, and I don't know, I just don't think we like repeating things! That was the project of last time, and we left that as part of that project as we wanted the new record to be simpler. I mean, we did make a lot of video teasers for these songs, and now we're playing live with the videos, and actually we had a great video for the first single..."
...it's an excellent video, we've got it up on the site at the minute.
"It's really great, right? And we had no part in it, the first time that we ever pulled totally out of something creatively. My big job with the band is all the art, I do all the packaging, all the covers, all the ads, everything, so it felt really good to give this up to my roommate Patrick. Well, actually, he just moved out, but I've know him for years, and it felt great to have him do it."
Was it difficult relinquishing the control? There's been a real aesthetic unity to everything Liars have done so far, were you worried about giving that over to someone else? How did you know they'd 'get it'?
"Yeah, it was difficult, but that was also the exciting part. We were dreading it in a way, but I've known Patrick for five years, we're close friends, so it wasn't that difficult because I know him so well. But it's always going to be difficult giving it to someone else, and I'm such an asshole when it comes to that stuff and I'm always having to be the jerk who's eating away at it. But it can get really too heavy at times, constantly arguing about what's the best album cover can become too much."
Between the first and the second LP there were a lot people surprised by the massive change of direction, do you think people who have settled in to the more experimental or conceptual method of making music that you've used on the last two records will be thrown once again by this one?
"Well, it's not as if that's the point of it. It wasn't like, 'how's about this experimental kids!? None of that for you any more!" - we don't want to alienate or push away from anyone. There's never a middle finger to anyone. I'm sure that some of the kids who like our more noisy stuff are probably going to be bummed, but you can't make everybody happy! We don't want to make them not happy, but we can't make songs based on how we feel people are going to react to them, because then you're not making songs you want to make, you're making songs that you think people are going to want to listen to. And that never works."
But despite that, would you say this is the most accessible Liars have been to a massive audience for a while now?
"Yep, I'd probably agree. But we didn't think (second LP) 'They Were Wrong So We Drowned' was as weird as everybody else did! We just thought it was a good record, and then it comes out and everybody was just like 'what is this, this isn't music!' We thought it was!"
Is that because people had the wrong idea of the band from the first record?
"I think people just don't like change. People like a band to be cohesive, especially in the 'States where people want things very quick and they don't really have time to think about what they want. It's really hard to understand their approach - we change, and then people get mad at us for changing. Then, The Strokes put out a record that sounds just like the first one and then people get mad at The Strokes, I mean, how much do you want me to change? What's the percentage that is correct?!"
Change is a great thing in music. Look at David Bowie. He'd be nothing if he didn't constantly change. Surely that's an archetype for a good career?
"That's what I was thinking! And it's fun, change, you know. It's fun to be in the band that's changing and you hope that it's fun for the listener. The last thing we want to do is push away the listener, or make them feel like we don't want them. A lot of people said the jump from the first record to the second record was just a big middle finger to New York, and I was just like 'whoa, never!'. There's never a middle finger to anyone, we never try to do that."
But that said, 'Drum's Not Dead' was a pretty experimental record, perhaps even more so than '...Drowned', and that got a great critical reception. Were you surprised with that after what happened with '...Drowned'?
"Erm, we were a little bit! We always hoped that would be the reaction, we always stand by what we make. I think 'Drum's Not Dead' was more noisy, but the noise was more pretty. If your mum can listen to a noise and like it, you're probably OK."
But there wasn't any temptation to just ride that critical wave, and just keep going further 'out there'?
"I think that we thought we were getting even more normal with 'Drum...', I don't think we were trying to get further away from anybody. The step of trying to write normal songs, for Angus, 'Drum' was his first attempt at actually trying to do 'verse-chorus-verse'. I don't know where our brains are at, they're kind of these weird dumb brains... I'll have all the demos for a record and I'll be like, 'all these songs are totally normal' they're totally straightforward' and I'll play it to a friend and he'll be like, 'what are you thinking?! You really think KROQ are going to play that?!' So we're all a little bit baffled at times about it, were don't think we're being as strange as people think we're being, we're not taking acid and putting ourselves in a cage and not eating for days or anything."
You've been quoted as saying you don't feel like musicians in a technical sense, Angus is especially quoted as saying that he doesn't feel like he can play to much of a degree, is that really true, and what is it that makes Liars as a band work if that's not true?
"Fortunately, it is sort of true. Well, apart from Aaron, he's the closest we've got to a technical genius. But with all art, creating anything doesn't need much technical ability. Technical ability can only take you so far. It's really about ideas. Ideas are different. Look at David Shrigley, he's a great example. I really like his work, but he can't draw for shit! But his drawings are great, they're funny and they're smart and really sad...."
For myself, and a lot of other people as well, hearing you say stuff like that is really inspiring, I think everyone should be in a band regardless of whether they can playing anything or not, would you agree?
"I would agree ONE HUNDRED PERCENT with what you just said. ONE HUNDRED PERCENT. There is not a part of me that would disagree. I was there when Angus started playing music, we were in art school together, somehow we got in this studio with a drumkit and a bass and I was like, 'hey, you wanna play?'. He was like, 'I don't know how to play', and I was like 'of course you do, just play it like it's a really simple beat (mimicks a simple slap octave sound) and pretend the strings are drums'. And all of a sudden he was playing the bass, and that's it!
That's an excellent way of going about it, I like it a lot.
"I mean, just hit it, it's a drum! Everything's a drum! That's it, I always wanted to teach junior high school and teach kids that - technical ability is not so important. Everybody can learn how to play 'Eruption' by Van Halen if they have classes, but you must be able to come up with the idea of 'Eruption'!
You've described it as being quite a primitive musical experience when you first started, but how was that developed? Have you learnt to play, or are you still clinging to that idea...
"Oh we've tried to learn how to play, I'm still taking drum classes! Angus takes guitar classes for the same reason, Aaron's been playing since he was young and he's actually a really technically talented musician, but Angus, especially for the last three years, not so much. For that first record, he'd never even played a guitar. But he started practicing and writing more and more and now he can like, wail! We're trying to learn our instruments better, and if there's something about this record, it's about trying to play it real, like a real band..."
...a real three piece rock trio!
"Yeah! But actually for touring we added a fourth member."
Yeah, I saw you at Field Day a few days ago and that was the first time with a fourth member, it sounded great.
"Thanks, yeah it's great that it frees up Angus too. He's Jared Silverman, he was in the Young People and a cackle of other bands."
Apart from just adding other members, with rock music as a genre, is there much left to be done that hasn't been done already?
"Well that's the big, weird, interesting question. I guess there isn't an end to everything, everything is ripping off something, nothing will be truly original any more unless some kind of new medium emerges. I just don't think anything's going to be truly unique. Even the idea of the underground is not real any more, I don't think there's some kind of subversive movement below the surface. I think black metal was probably the closest to that, you know, saying 'we don't want your attention, or even the attention of each other!'"
Which made it even more exciting!
"It did! But it couldn't stay that way, I mean how underground is it when my parents know about the church burnings in Norway? Whatever! In any case, music is exciting, the fact that nothing might be truly original doesn't really matter because things are always going to be fun, they'll always change a bit, be mashed up a bit more. I like the idea that in 35, 40 years, people will all be like Can. I like the idea of everything just meshing together more, and people not really knowing where the root of something is."
Is it a good time to be a musician, 2007?
"In which way, like a financial way? I mean, the internet, downloading, falling record sales, we're just in the weirdest time of musical history right now, there's nobody who knows what they're doing, record companies are just running around with their arms flailing about without a clue, people are trying to stop downloading, which is kind of stupid. I mean, our record leaked pretty much the day after I got the master! And that bums you out a bit, but you know, we download, and you just have to work with it and make it different, make it work for you. That's the exciting thing about music right now, where that side of things is going to go."
So you're excited by the prospect rather than scared of it like a lot of bands seem to be?
"God yes, engulf it, embrace it, how are you going to fight it?! Isn't it like trying to fight the car when that was invented? It's kind of a dumb fight, so why not embrace the change? Change is beautiful, and change is exciting, so let's see what happens!"
That's surely the Liars ethos summed up, isn't it?
"Yeah! I want to know what's going to happen. I think the CD will be gone in 5-10 years, vinyl will stay and be a big source. I think it'll be product, now. If you want to buy the next Liars record, we won't have a cd, maybe we'll have a rug with a number that tells you how to download it, a plate, a cup, or a fire log, and that's what the release is. It's just product now, consumerism is just getting more and more disgusting with age so I can only imagine that's what it's going to be, very soon."
Well, it does open up a whole new world in which to be creative I guess... I'm sure you'll find ways to make that as interesting as you make your records.
"Oh yeah, I can't wait! I can't wait for it to be the most ridiculous death for the CD."
Just to end, I'd like to talk about the relationship between experimental music and more accessible music if that's cool.
"Sure, how do you mean?"
People like yourselves, Radiohead, Bjork, you've all gone through quite experimental periods, but have followed up those periods with something much more accessible (from 'Amnesiac' to 'Hail to the Thief', 'Medulla' to 'Volta', 'Drums Not Dead' To 'Liars'). Do you reckon there's something about a successful period of experimentation, like that which you had with 'Drum...' that makes you want to apply its results to a more conventional way of doing things, almost like a scientist would use results? Does that strike a chord?
"I think that kinda makes perfect sense to me. You're constantly taking stuff you had previously and mixing it with something new, it's chemistry, and you watch how those things react off each other. And that's totally exciting. I think about it in a visual way like a wave, too. The things that are exciting are dynamic, like rollercoasters, go up and down because that's more fun than just going straight. You hit this peak of experimentation and the next thing that makes the most sense is to go down and see where you're at now."
A constant path of experimentation is just as dull as always repeating yourself?
"Yeah, I think that's the beauty of the three records..."
(...oddly, he omits the first one from this description - perhaps because it's such an anomaly, perhaps because he's not actually even on it...)
"...if all three of us were painters and we were ever painting together, each time we had a show the paintings would be nothing like what we'd painted before. We all just agree on that, there's no talking about it, we're not discussing our next wave, we just understand each other. I mean, I loved Mondrian when I was a kid, but I went to see his live show and I was like, what, for years you did that?! I was so disappointed!"
They might have stopped experimenting for the moment, but what you have to understand is that doesn't mean they've stopped changing. They're simply, brilliantly, incapable of that.
Artists in this article: Liars