Sonic Youth - Lille, France, Summer 2002
By: Maryse Laloux
Sometimes, becoming deemed an 'indie-stalwart' isn't testament enough to the legacy of Sonic Youth. A band continually challenging the concepts of what constitutes a rock-group and persistently evolving on their own terms, their twenty-one years of producing music have marked times of higher peaks than others, but, arguably, a consistently thrilling evolution throughout nonetheless.
With 2002, the boundaries are continuing to be broken. Following the controversial 'NYC Ghosts & Flowers' of 2000 - so experimental that most of its critics failed to view the New Yorkers' bold, if scattered, vision - and apt shows around the same time, which captured much of the quartet's distaste for trading in on past glories, the avant-garde rockers have returned with their sixteenth studio-album, 'Murray Street', as named after their own recording-studio.
Speaking in Lille, France amidst a present world-tour, founder-member, guitarist and vocalist Thurston Moore is in a contemplative mood about the band's progress to date, specifically on the 'Youth's most recent output.
'We built the studio inside this building on Murray Street maybe five or six years ago,' he explains, providing background to their latest LP. 'It was a big studio. It was great, because the real estate in NY is so expensive that, to find a place like this that was cheap, it was good for us... It's down the Wall Street area; we just sort of took it for granted that's where we work.
'In fact, it was annoying to get down there,' he continues, 'I always had to take a train down, but after Sept. 11 we didn't think we would ever work there again because it's two blocks north of the World Trade Center; (that) is where I used to take a train to, and we thought (the studio) was destroyed - but it wasn't... I mean it was shaken up, but it wasn't destroyed. It was about two months before we could get back in.
'We had to stop recording for two months and we just stayed home; we had no idea what to do... One idea was maybe to go somewhere else, go to Memphis, Tennessee because there is a studio there that we like. One idea was to see if maybe we could get back in there and see if everything works, and (eventually) we were slowly able to get back in there... Everything was blown out; all the electricity was gone, blown out. We had to bring in a sixteen-man team to detoxify the entire place. But it was approachable, and all our tapes were there.
Moore suddenly becomes reflective on the surrounding areas of their work-base. 'The neighbourhood was just completely destroyed. It was a very, very odd environment, very frightening, just desolate and everybody was gone, except for the policemen and some firemen and many trucks just fixing and carrying and all that... But we were able to get the studio running again and we decided to record the record there. I think it's because we felt the desire to reclaim our neighbourhood to some degree and do this work there, which we thought was creative in the face of this destruction.'
So, did you consider naming the album according to not just the location, but also the events of 9/11?
'No,' Thurston retorts quite simply. 'We had no desire to talk about Sept 11. It's too much of an exploitation. The only reason we called it 'Murray Street' is because I was walking around taking pictures of the neighbourhood, and one picture I took was of a street-sign: it's on the back-cover of the record, and I brought it into the studio and everybody was like, 'That should be the cover,' and then we thought, 'No, this is too weird,' but we liked it enough to put it on; the front cover is more of a utopian image of two children - my daughter, Coco, and a friend of hers from Holland - picking strawberries under a net.'
He then builds up to the grand revelation.
'So, we called it 'Murray Street', because... Well, the sign said Murray Street...'
Hmm, possibly one of the Sonics' more straightforward endeavours in this instance, then...
Fittingly to today's location, one ardent SY observer may note the band's somewhat apparent fixation on certain aspects of French living. Aside from Moore originally scoring music for cult film-maker Olivier Assayas, and his going on to record with Brigitte Fontaine (the results appearing within a France-only 10" released recently), there's also the matter of his daughter's name, too.
'Are we Francophiles,' Thurston asks himself. He answers his own question. 'I don't know. Maybe it's because I always admired the way the French cultural society embraced American expatriate musicians who were doing very radical music and who were not accepted in their hometown, like Albert Iler and free jazz musicians... It has always impressed me quite a bit and I think a lot of more challenging streams of music and art that come out of different areas are recognised in France for the value that they may have and so maybe that is something I respond to. But I don't think it's for any reason. I just think maybe there is a connection: some cultural stimulus that's French.'
Discussing the French-only record, he details, 'The titles come from this French artist named Claude Pelieu. Claude Pelieu was a man who was a very close friend of William Burroughs' in Paris and he lived with William Burroughs and Brion Gysin in the Beat Hotel in Paris on rue Git le Coeur, I think. He was great. Claude Pelieu wrote some books in the 60s and 70s. He had a book of collections of his writings called 'Kali Yug Express' which I took this title from, and these are some titles of his: 'Dernière minute Electrifée' (translated as 'the final electrified minute'), 'Le Paysage Zim Zum', and 'Coca Neon Kamera Sutra'... He was a really interesting writer; he was responsible along with Burroughs and Gysin for doing cut-up techniques and 'experimental writing', but nobody talks about Pelieu... He was very important to this whole experimental literature scene.
'He was a Frenchman. He lives near me now in Massachusetts and he is married to Mary Beach. Her mother was the one who started Shakespeare & Company. So it's an important scene. Claude Pelieu is remarkable. He also did collage art... He is a great sort of underground French artist and so these titles come from Claude Pelieu.'
It's such an awareness and respect for fellow artistes that allows some to view the band as 'pretentious'; the heyday of such criticisms arrived in one of their most recent tours, as a matter of fact. Playing a select number of shows in various cities under the banner of 'SYR4 - Goodbye 20th Century', it was a chance for Moore and co. to play works by their inspirations and influences. Sadly, though - for a few - this was next to intolerable.
'That was a very interesting tour,' recalls the guitarist, 'because we were playing music primarily by 20th-Century academic composers like John Cage and Cornelius Cardew and Yoko Ono... A lot of (the criticism) had to do with the presentation. In Belgium, it was very obvious that this was Sonic Youth presenting music of this sort and it wasn't going to be a Sonic Youth concert; it was in a theatre that sort of presented this music historically.
'In Paris - it was at the Olympia I think - (because) we've played the Olympia before, we've had these rock concerts there and I just think a lot of people came disregarding the fact that maybe we were doing something really outside of what is predicted... And, so, there was enough people there to sing, 'Let's hear 'Teenage Riot' please,' so the information maybe wasn't so apparent, and so therefore there was a lot of people who didn't want to hear this music and... We realised that was going to happen.
'London, I've never had success in London presenting anything outside of what's expected, which is strange, because we always deliver something that's unexpected. Usually in countries, we always ask for opening bands to be bands that come from a real radical underground, that present music that's really challenging for the most part, any other improvisational band that's kind of wild... Last night in Lyon, for example, we had Jean-François Pauvros; he's in a new group called Marteau Rouge... It's not something people normally see in these venues or with bands like us and it's great, because every time we do this all over the world people love it; for the most part they are just like, 'Wow! That's something I've never seen or heard before.' In London, they hate it. They do. They are just like they don't get it. They say, 'Why? This is crap!'
When observing such reactions in various worldwide destinations, what do you find of your popularity; would you say that you are more popular in Europe than in the States, for instance?
'Maybe we are more exotic here,' he contemplates, before changing his mind, 'no - I think it's about the same. I mean there are just some hot-beds like Tokyo... I know we are less popular maybe in Germany and a couple of others, but it's always changing a little bit through the years...'
Speaking of material changing through the years, to allow the band's true roots of trialling their own sound to work in full, artistic and creative freedom, the setting up of two labels of their own was initiated, aside from their major-label home, Geffen: Ecstatic Peace, and SYR (Sonic Youth Recordings).
'We would never give Geffen records that we do on SYR,' Moore outlines, 'because Geffen is all about making large campaigns and spending money and trying to increase the sales of their product; they have no interest in doing things on a modest scale and just releasing something that's just for pretty much fans of your music.
'That's why we do different things outside of Geffen, because I don't want to have to think that every piece of music we construct has to be so precious that it needs this big campaign, so we decided to make SYR so we can actually release records without having to do such a sales-pitch on everything. It's just there. It's not necessary. It's not in Geffen's best interest. They don't want to have to deal with music that can't get near the radio and, with our SYR records, there's very few radio stations that will attempt to play this music - but there is a whole culture, people who record music of this nature... We are very much part of that, but we also like doing really song-based albums, so it's great that we can have a label that will do it...'
It's not just the haphazard musical-destination that they constantly strive to find themselves heading on which proves challenging to say the least, but Sonic Youth's climate of calmness is often being compromised, too. Three years ago, their precious equipment being stolen was much publicised, and - as already covered - the studio that they had formed and worked within was found within a ravaged and barricaded area... Even in such dark times, did the saying 'every cloud has a silver lining' possess any truth in either of these periods of time?
Thurston ponders momentarily. 'Well... Yeah... I mean, we've always sort of been very hopeful in the light of anything and everything like this.
'Certainly, getting the guitars stolen and everything, to me, it was almost like being a new band... I just had to pick up new guitars and try new things and that was very rewarding in some way and it was a break-away from this thing that we became so comfortable; I liked that. I was glad to see everything thrown away.
'Er...' He's arrived on to the next part of the question, regarding the studio. 'I don't really see anything special coming out Sept. 11 at all. I think it's remarkable to be alive and to experience such a critical piece of history and to have such close proximity to it; I know it's something I'll never forget even if it's so horrific, and I feel amazed that I'm actually sort of existing around this... I just cannot wrap my mind around it - it's just so crazy for me, but I don't really see anything positive coming out of it except for the response that comes from it.
'As far as the community exists, the community of people who all over the world have only a desire for understanding and peace, I think it brings them close together. In America, it's very interesting, because the country is so split in half and I don't think there is any real mainstream recognition of the fact that a solid half of America is not really in compliance with what's going on with the Administration and what their connection to all this history of animosity is about, and so it's not all, 'Rah! Rah! Rah! USA!!!' but that's what you see always on the news. And I think it's gonna be a sort of civil-war in America, at least philosophically there will be always... This breakdown... So I'm curious to see how it develops...'
The interview ends and show-time shortly arrives.
Thinkers, poets, musicians - really, it's a rarity that popular-music is able to accommodate such refreshingly open-minded and talented figures within its overpowering sanctum of otherwise predominant monotony... As much as Thurston Moore himself is curious to chart the development of American society following recent occurrences, no doubt - as with the history Sonic Youth have created thus far - music-audiences shall for many years more be intrigued and enthralled by one of the NYC's finest and most essential four-pieces to date from year dot.
Artists in this article: Sonic Youth